Season 5 Ep. 33
The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.
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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Welcome to the Council of War. This is what Moroni called the official meeting with Teancum and many of the chief captains that met together to discuss what they should do in their battle with the enemy. Today's study of Alma chapters 43 through 52 is 10 chapters entirely about war. Have you ever wondered why Mormon included these war stories when he had such limited space on the plates?
Well, the Council of War might be one reason. And for this Council of War today, I have invited two skilled chief captains to help me discuss the best tactics against the enemy in battle. Satan, and what key tactic might guarantee a win. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week.
And we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, welcome. Please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study. Just like my fun friend, Paige Rican and her kind daughter from studio five.
I loved meeting her and Paige, thank you for the kind compliment. You told your daughter that I know Jesus. That made my day. Now, another fantastic thing about our study group, and it's my favorite thing, is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different. And today we have two kind of old timers.
They've been on a couple of times and I had to invite them back to discuss these war chapters. I have Robert Howarth and Doug Farley. Hi guys!
[00:01:33] Robert Howarth: Hey, Tammy.
[00:01:35] Doug Farley: Hey, Tammy.
[00:01:35] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. This is going to be fun. All right. How do you two know each other?
[00:01:41] Robert Howarth: Oh, boy. I, I, we've been in the same, uh, neighborhood for what, 25 years?
[00:01:46] Doug Farley: Yeah. 25 years. We first moved in. You guys had moved in just before. I just found the same time and we had done the same straight. And then you guys moved into the ward just on a different street.
[00:01:57] Robert Howarth: So yeah, go way, way back, way, way back. In fact, we tried to move once back in the 2008, you know, we're going to move to Chicago and, uh, the Farley's threw us just a beautiful going away party.
And you know, that was right when the housing crash, you know, kind of happened and the people that were buying our house pulled out the last minute and we couldn't sell our house and we ended up never moving. And uh, they had a book that all these people wrote these beautiful things to us. And Farley, have you ever given it to us?
[00:02:24] Doug Farley: Uh, I, that, that would be in Becky's hands.
[00:02:27] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I'm telling you right now, they haven't. No, they haven't. Listen, Becky, if you're listening to this, you better give it to them.
[00:02:33] Doug Farley: No, I think we're waiting for the opportune moment to bribe them.
[00:02:37] Robert Howarth: I know. I wonder how things have changed. You know, people probably feel totally different about me now, you know, 15 years.
[00:02:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, you might want those cards because they might have said nice things. You're going to need that.
[00:02:49] Doug Farley: I've erased my comment like five times and redone it.
[00:02:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, not only have you been like neighbors, but you guys, we're all best friends, which I love. And I was saying before we started, I mean, Doug and Robert knew me when I was single and in the thick of it.
And they would listen to all my stupid date stories. I just, we've. because their wives are two of my very best friends, Becky Farley and Holly Howarth. And you guys know them as my Bible study ladies, the original Bible study ladies. And so we've just known each other forever. And I, I really just appreciate how you two are willing to be on the podcast.
Like you don't even give me any guilt or grief about it. I ask you and you're like, you bet. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:26] Robert Howarth: Yeah. Let's say I have nothing better to do.
[00:03:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Good stuff. I knew your perspectives would be pretty awesome. I had you on for Old Testament when we talked about the book of Judges, which were war chapters and you just naturally came to mind for these war chapters.
And I really do consider you two of my chiefest captains. You guys, you've done this. You've been into thick of it. You've been at war. And so I'm really looking forward to your insights and your advice on how we're going to defeat the enemy, which is Satan in this council of war. I loved reading it this time and seeing that.
How many times have I read the book of Mormon and I've never noticed it called the council of war. That was awesome. If you guys want to market, it's an Alma chapter 52 verse 19. So go mark that. And we are going to have a council of war today. So if you want to more about my guests. You're going to want to check out our show notes, which are at LDS living.
com slash Sunday on Monday. And you can read their bios and see their pictures. So everyone grab your scriptures and something to mark your scriptures with. And let's dig in together and have a council of war. As we discuss Alma chapters 43 through 52 K you to tell me right before we get into this, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you read from these chapters?
[00:04:35] Robert Howarth: It was kind of interesting, you know, because, you know, like you said, I've read the book more than many times, um, and it was interesting this time around, you know, looking at these particular chapters, you know, as a kid, you'd look at the footnote, if there weren't a lot of footnotes at the bottom of the page, you're like, this is not a super important, um, you know, part Mormon, right?
And there's not a whole lot of, you know, footnotes in some of these areas, but you know, like you said, coming away from this, you know, the word preparation came to mind, but there was one particular scripture that, uh, was in, uh, Alma 50 verse 23. And it just says, and behold, there was never a happier time among the people of Nephi since the days of Nephi than the days of Moroni.
And, you know, it was just kind of shocked me that that was in the middle of these war chapters, but you know, there was a period of about five years, four or five years where it was relatively peaceful. They were preparing for war. They were doing everything they could to, to be ready because they knew something was going to happen.
But I, I, you know, think about fourth nephi when they talk about the happiness those people had when, uh, you know, after the, um, the appearance of the savior. Um, but, you know, that struck me for whatever reason by the Holy Ghost. I was sitting there reading that. I go, wow. Even in the midst of some really difficult things where you are in an existential crisis, you know, your, your various existence is at risk.
There can be complete happiness because, you know, as we will learn, you know, as we talk about this, that if you're on the Lord's side, um, there's so many promises that are bestowed upon you. Um, that make it so you don't have to fear.
[00:06:08] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you, Robert. I hope everybody marked that Alma chapter 50 verse 23, because we're going to use that today.
And Robert, you didn't even know that we were going to use that. And I think that is, that stood out to me. I'm like, how did I not ever notice that? Holy cow. Yeah. What? And that's a lot of time that's passed from the time of Nephi till now. I can think of some happy times.
[00:06:29] Doug Farley: Yeah.
[00:06:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. That's so cool. What about you, Doug?
[00:06:33] Doug Farley: Oh gosh. I, I looked at these chapters and when I was a kid, my parents had those covenant record animated. Yeah. Book of Mormon records. And I used to listen to these war chapters all the time, over and over. I was enthralled with them as a little kid. And so when I saw this, I was like, Oh, I know these things well, cause I've lived them in my head multiple times.
And I actually saw this very differently. Um, as I was going through it, I started to see things like, okay, the title of liberty and, yeah, how it focuses on family. and rights and religion and my thoughts then turn to the temple and our covenants and the covenants we make and that there's similarities there and it's like, and how Moroni used that title to strengthen and to hone in and focus the people in the battle, the men in the battle.
And how president Nelson has told us, Hey, in these days, What is the thing that's going to get us through anything and it's going to keep us safe as the temple. And so it kind of pulled that together.
[00:07:50] Robert Howarth: Doug, were those like full LP albums you were listening to or the little 33, what were you listening to?
[00:07:55] Doug Farley: Oh no, they were the big ones. Yeah. They were full and I would just sit there and, and they had in the battle, you could hear the slaughter going on. So it really,
[00:08:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I remember the clanking of the swords.
[00:08:07] Robert Howarth: But it didn't have a film strip that went with it or anything that you had to?
[00:08:10] Doug Farley: No, but no, but when Nephi cut off Laban said, you, you heard it, it was graphic. I mean, it was probably a watermelon being cut, but you know,
[00:08:19] Robert Howarth: I missed out on your imagination.
[00:08:21] Doug Farley: Your imagination was going wild.
[00:08:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I'm sure it's crazy, Doug. I appreciate how you shared because you said you, you know, as a kid, you listen to this all the time and you're like, here we go. I know these chapters, but isn't it so fun how all three of us have the same experience where we thought, Oh yeah, we know this.
We've read it so many times. We've taught it so many times. And then it, it really does depend on the stage of life you're in or what you're going through that just completely alters the way the story appears or the things you notice or read. That's what was so fun about these chapters for me is suddenly I'm like this, I've never seen this before.
So we're going to have a great discussion today and I'm really looking forward to your answer to my next question in the next segment because I want to know what you think about why. Are these chapters included in the Book of Mormon? We'll do that next.
Segment 2
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[00:09:17] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's just turn to the Book of Words of Mormon. Chapter one, verse five. Let's go to Words of Mormon. It goes, Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, Words of Mormon. And it's just one chapter, but I want us to look at verse five. And Robert, can you please read verse five for us?
[00:09:34] Robert Howarth: I'd be happy to. Wherefore, I chose these things to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi.
And I cannot write a hundredth part of the things of my people.
[00:09:46] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Now let's just, can someone crunch the numbers for me? What does it mean in the scriptures when it says I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people? What's he saying there? I'm not good at social math. We all know this.
[00:09:58] Robert Howarth: Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, you can talk about the Book of Mormon being over 500 pages in the English version. Um, you know, that's 5, 000 pages of if you're times 100, but I think it's probably a little bit more of a, um, you know, uh, not a strict number, but more, you know, Hey, I, there's a lot more and it's probably a lot more than a hundred part, uh, I would think.
[00:10:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Ooh, that's a good take on that. I like it. Anything else to add, Doug?
[00:10:24] Doug Farley: Uh, yeah. I mean, I think about how many times you try to explain something, you know, where, where you. And, and there's just so much and you're just like, uh, where do I even start? And then you'll tell something to someone and then, and it just does, like, I always like that didn't even cut it.
You know, cause there's just so much and then not just volume, but the depth because sometimes it's so hard to explain something that's a deeper principle and you're like, wow, okay, kind of got it.
[00:11:01] Robert Howarth: Yeah. Okay. I like that. I think beyond that too, you know, as Mormon sitting there compiling the records, there is limited space.
So you have to think I've got to find the most compelling and important things I can put into this. Um, you know, and that's, so I think it makes me think, okay, this is really, really important. Uh, if, if we're not, uh, you know, really taking this thing seriously, we're missing something. So talk to me about that.
Why do you think Mormon included? Well, I mean, I've got five kids. Uh, you know, I've, I've gone through a lot of battles. I am word tested. Um, and not just with the kids, but also with my own life, you know, as I've gotten this point in my life, I never would have thought I would have gone through and, and, and experienced a lot of things that I have.
Uh, you just can't, you can't. comprehend, you know, what, what life has ahead of you. And so as I think about the preparation that they talk about in here, and they talk about the faith that the people had and, and, you know, the promises that they had were, Hey, if you will keep my commandments, you'll prosper in the land.
That's something that is completely applicable to us, us and our day. And, you know, that, that gives me, you know, great comfort and great hope, um, but also, you know, to see people working through problems and, and using stratagems to retake cities. And, and, you know, just, I think about Moroni having spies out there watching, but he also went to Alma and asked, Hey, where do I need to go?
You know, those are really relevant to us in our day because you gotta have more than one way to win. And so I, I rely on the Lord and, you know, then I also rely on, on myself that, you know, that together, you know, we're going to have everything that we need. And it really, I'm not, I'm not giving much myself, but, um, you know, you're going to be able to succeed no matter what.
And, you know, it might get dire and things might get dicey, but you know, you made it through 100 percent of everything hard thing you've ever been through so far in your life, Tammy. And so have I. You stick with the Lord, you can get through anything.
[00:13:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Can I ask a follow up question? Cause I'm sure people are wondering this.
When you said at this stage in my life, I've gone through things that I never thought in a million years I'd have to go through. Just give us one thing. Like, what do you mean by that? One thing? Give us context. I mean, even if it's like, I don't even know your beliefs or anything you want to just, cause I, a lot of people are gonna be like, well, what do you mean?
You can't imagine you've gone through this.
[00:13:32] Robert Howarth: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, I can't give you one thing, but listen, I got married to, to Holly, um, and she had a five year old son at the time, you know, I never thought I would have done that. I was 22 for heaven's sakes. Um, and then, you know, beyond that, uh, uh, you know, I've got, um, you know, children, uh, you Ellery, who's been on the podcast a few times, I imagine.
Yeah. You know, she's come out as gay and, um, you know, growing up, I didn't know anything about it and, um, you know, trying to understand how do you put that together with the gospel when you sit there and you grew up and you say, Hey, you need to be married celestially and have a, you know, eternal marriage.
And then you can be in the highest glory of the celestial kingdom. Yeah. How do I reconcile that with. The gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, and we can talk a lot about those types of things, but you're listening to a couple of things that, you know, but I, my life has been, you know, we, we go from one disaster to the next, you know, trying to get through it.
Yeah. And, uh, but you know what, I wouldn't change a thing. Because, uh, my life has been, I mean, far, far more interesting and incredible and, and, and, you know, depth of, of emotion than I ever could have imagined. So I'll take it all day long.
[00:14:51] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, then to hear you bear your testimony about the war chapters, and to me, it sounds like I could say, and I've known you long enough to know that you've been at war. You definitely have. And you've taken a few hits to your armor.
[00:15:05] Robert Howarth: No, I mean, yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've been wounded severely, but I've never felt, uh, defeated as long as you can get up that next day and keep going. It's, it's a, it's a battle worth fighting.
[00:15:20] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Just what you said right there. I felt the spirit so strong.
Thank you, Robert. What about you, Doug? Why do you think he included the, the war chapters?
[00:15:30] Doug Farley: You know, I, I have thought about that quite a bit. And it is, when you really look at it, I don't know how people can't connect that to life, you know, and, and the ability to say, you're in for it. You're in this situation.
How do you think outside of the box so that you can handle it differently so that you can fight it differently? It things come at you so weird nowadays. It's so different than when we were kids and what, what you thought life was going to be like when you were younger. You know, when I see the challenges and the things that I face on a day to day basis, I think of this, these sections of the Book of Mormon and, you know, Moroni was always a hero of mine.
And so I'm like, look what he did. He looked at something totally different than everybody else that was there. The Lamanites couldn't even think that capacity. They just had to copy the Nephites. And he was inspired. And he still kept it together and came up with these solutions under a spiritual control. And everything was done with the focus of, of God and his people and liberty.
[00:16:54] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Doug, I like how you said that Moroni had focus. I think that's a great perspective to have as we go into this. So thank you for sharing that and thank you both of you. I agree with you.
[00:17:05] Robert Howarth: As I think about why the war chapters are there, you know, the thing I wrote down, uh, in my notes was that there's two different parts.
This is cleansing the inner and the outer vessel. Um, you know, they talked about Helaman and they talked about Alma and all the brethren that did so much work, you know, to cleanse your inner vessel of the church there in the people of Nephi. But also Captain Moroni was working very, very hard to build fortifications and do things like that and to pair the people with armor and, and to have, you know, tactics in the, in the battlefield.
And I think that's so important in our life as well, as I think it struck me very, very strongly as we talked about, how did the Holy Ghost affect me, um, during reading these drafters and that is, I need to do a really good job of cleansing my inner vessel and keeping that pure. And because, you know, having the, the, uh, heavenly power and the gift of the Holy Ghost and the influence only goes to my life each and every day is, um, essential, uh, just as essential as me going out and working and providing an income and provide, you know, keeping a house over, uh, the kids heads and food in their mouths.
There's also the, the, um, spiritual side of things to, uh, like Doug was talking about to protect your family. It's not so much, you know, physical as it is spiritual. Um, you know, I, I reading from the Book of Mormon every day and, and, uh, going to the temple and doing all these things blesses my life, not just temporally, but in a way that I feel like I've got the ability to really help my kids and my wife and everyone that, that, you know, Hey, we're going to have a celestial home and we're going to have a place safe.
You come here and you, you know, none of the, the tribulations of this world are going to bother you while you're in my house. You know that that's really really important to me and I feel like that that's you know Part of what I felt with these war chapters. That When their inner vessel was cleansed they never We're defeated by the Lamanites.
[00:18:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: You're absolutely right. Wow. Because I think what's so fascinating with both, both of you said, and what we need to recognize, cause I'm just now noticing this about the war chapters, is that even though the people were living and doing what's right and following the Lord, the war never stopped. The war kept going on all around them, but they were able to withstand the blows or they were able to, to dominate.
And, but the wars never ended. Isn't that fascinating? It didn't ever stop the bloodshed. There were still casualties. And so Holy cow, you guys, the council of war has commenced. This is going to be such a great discussion. In fact, I wished if we were together, I would have brought you guys swords. I would have made you a little hats, maybe a breastplate.
If you're teaching seminary, please do that with your kids. Bring a big thing of tinfoil to class and a whole lot of paper, uh, make everything you would use in war. Because as awful as war is, okay, let's remember that. I want to go back to what Robert shared in Alma chapter 50 verse 23, but behold, there never was a happier time among the people of Nephi since the days of Nephi.
How in the world could somebody say that? That's what we're going to discover and discuss in the rest of this episode. And we'll start that next.
Segment 3
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[00:20:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So my daughters recently started playing lacrosse. And the last couple of times they've gone to practice, they've texted me and said, we're not going to be home for dinner. We're watching film. Now, if you get a text like that, what does that say to you?
[00:20:31] Robert Howarth: Means they're invested and they're, they're trying to get better. They want to, they want to be able to see, you know, what they've done and how they can prepare for, you know, the next battle.
[00:20:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, that's perfect. Yes. Absolutely. Are you allowed to watch film of the enemy or the team you're going to play?
[00:20:49] Doug Farley: Oh, well, sometimes. Yep. Or is that illegal? You see that? No. You see that where teams will study the team, other teams and, and find their weaknesses.
Yeah. Basically.
[00:21:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. That's perfection. So here's what we're going to do in this segment. We're going to study the enemies film. So I asked you guys to come prepared telling me what were some of the efforts of the Nephite enemies? Like what did they do? What were their tactics when they came up against Moroni and the Nephites?
[00:21:19] Doug Farley: Well, so in, um, Alma 43 8. The Lamanites had to kind of rally themselves so they had to stir each other up and get each other all mad. So it says, for behold, the designs were to stir up the Lamanites to anger against the me fights. This he did that he might usurp great power over them. And also that he might gain power over the Nephites by bringing them into bondage.
So by, you know, getting them so mad that it kind of makes it so they're blind and they don't think for themselves. They just get caught up in the fury of it.
[00:21:58] Tammy Uzelac Hall: We call them pot stirrers, people that stir the pot when you don't need to adding fuel to the fires. Another way to put it. Yeah. That's what he's doing. Great one. Keep going.
[00:22:08] Robert Howarth: But what, what makes a Nephi and the Lamanites so angry though all the time? I just don't get it. You know, I mean, would that get me, you know, stirred up enough to grab my sword and head over there? And I don't know. You probably wouldn't. I don't think I would.
[00:22:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It's like, no, I don't have time for that.
[00:22:24] Robert Howarth: It seems like a lot of work to go up there and subjugate them to, uh, to us. I mean, I guess they wanted to take over their land. I don't know. The Nephites kept on trying to go back to, you know, take their old land back and, and, and, and the, uh, you know, original. I don't, I don't get why they want to come up here.
[00:22:41] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Robert, that's a really great thing to think about because we read verse eight and in my mind in our human brains, we think it was a one and done. Like he was able to stir them up and immediately they're angry. But I would love again, a little asterisk for it to say. A year's time was this campaign going on where propaganda news was being spread, rumors were being spread.
Like how vicious were the words that were being stirred up to cause the Lamanites to finally get to the point where they're like, yeah, let's do it. Do this. Let's, let's destroy the Nephites because even in the world today, it, it's usually not one little thing. It's just a constant barrage of negative comments and things that you get to the point where you do get mad.
Maybe. I don't know. I think it's interesting that, that thought right there, Robert.
[00:23:27] Robert Howarth: Well, I mean, just think you have to dehumanize, you know, your opponent in some way. And, um, you know, I think about the, the conflicts going on around the world today, you know, how different are they from each other? You can't look at them as a child of God. You know, you're looking at them as a human that they, you know, they're, they're inferior to you. And I, you know, I think that that's just a, uh, you know, tool that Satan uses all the time to separate us and divide us is, you know, say they were not, we're not alike.
[00:23:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: We call it the othering. Yes. Yeah. Other people. Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. I like that.
[00:24:03] Doug Farley: Well, and, and I always found it interesting that they continue like the only thing that they really have to elate to stand on. Nephi got the birthright basically. Then they thought, Oh, we were supposed to be the king and we weren't. And then to, to boot, you know, the Nephites built the city of Nephi and lived there and then abandoned it and left.
And the Lamanites kind of, Just moved in and took it over. They really didn't do anything at all and yet They still are saying those dirty buggers when the Nephites didn't do anything Yeah,
[00:24:40] Robert Howarth: I think another thing that the Lamanites did is you know, they just came with brute brute strength, you know They always had way more people than the Nephites.
It felt like you know, I read in In chapter 49, um, you know, verse seven, it says, uh, and being thus prepared, they suppose that they should easily overpower and subject their brethren to the yoke of bondage or slay a massacre them according to their pleasure, according to their pleasure. That's just incredible.
I mean, but yeah, they always came with, you know, a huge arm and they always thought that their numbers would, would win out the, the day. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about these war chapters and, and, uh, the Book of Mormon is that you see over and over and over again, if you're on the Lord's side, it doesn't matter.
Who's on the other, the opposition, you're going to be able to have everything you need to win.
[00:25:25] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. And just that verse, you shared the fact that they put the word in their massacre, according to their pleasure. I mean, that just makes you kind of sick. Wow.
[00:25:36] Robert Howarth: It does. And it just, you know, again, it just illustrates that point that they, you know, didn't look upon the Nephites as people at all.
[00:25:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah.
[00:25:43] Doug Farley: Well, in the verse 29 of 43, it, it talks about, he wants to bring them into bondage that they might establish a kingdom unto themselves so that they can subject them unto them. Like what were they thinking about man? Like that they were going to make the defights be their servants and like make them bake them dinners.
Yeah, enslave them so that they could just sit around and be served grapes on a hot day that were chilled or something. You know, it's like, I, it's like, you look at it and you're like, what really? Like I don't, they didn't even know what it was they were gonna have them do, but they just had these concepts in their minds that we just have to do this.
We're just gonna go and get 'em and kill 'em and have fun killing 'em. And then we're gonna make 'em rub our feet because they're sore. You know, it's like, yeah, I didn't even know what it meant.
[00:26:43] Robert Howarth: Well, I think they did. I think, you know, they knew that the Nephites, you know, grew a lot of grain and other things like that.
You know, you, you come in there and you take over this other plate and you, you take their, their abundance. That's what they wanted. Yeah. They want someone to work for them.
[00:26:55] Doug Farley: Sure.
[00:26:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: They want more. They absolutely want more. And that's the way to get it. Ooh. That's a good one. Okay. Enslave.
[00:27:02] Doug Farley: And that's something that Satan wants to do to us is he wants to enslave us to his will to, to anything that will distract us from the gospel.
[00:27:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Absolutely.
[00:27:16] Robert Howarth: Well, I think that really brings me to another point there in chapter 46, we've got Amalekiah, you know, saying flattering words. And in verse seven, it says, there are many in the church who believed in the flattering words of Amalekiah. Therefore, they dissented even from the church, and thus were the affairs of the people of Nephi exceedingly precarious and dangerous.
But what really struck me here is, okay, Amalekiah, you know, wants to, um, you know, usurp authority, and he brought a lot of people with him. But I, when it started to read here that he took his people, I always thought, ah, these are the, you know, kind of the people that weren't in the church. No, but he had flattering words that, um, Made people that were in the church decide to follow him and that always was just I mean, this last time when I read it, it just struck me.
It's like, why would anyone, you know, want to leave the church to follow that? What, what on earth was he saying? What are flattering words? What could he possibly have said to them to make them decide that the church was not for them anymore? And then I started, well, I see it every day. I see it all around me all the time with my friends and the people I've known and love, um, that, you know, the church church isn't for me.
Um, I'm ready to, to move on. It's not serving, serving me the way that I need it to. And I wonder if that's the flattering words that he says, Hey, join us and be a part of our group. Our group is really cool. Uh, we wear cool clothes. We have great parties. Um, and you know, Hey, we're going to have a good time when you're over there working in nursery right now.
[00:28:47] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I like how you pointed out flattering words because when you read that for me, I immediately read. Okay. Flattering words, like you think, Oh, you're so pretty. You're so wonderful. You're so great. Like from that viewpoint, but really I love how you're just talking about this. Like what are these flattering words and how do they get to me then they must be comforting words.
They have to be words that like, what do you just, how would you define the word flattering right here? Cause that's a good one, Robert.
[00:29:17] Robert Howarth: Oh, it is a good one. I mean, cause flattering. Yeah, you're right. I mean, tell me, hey, Robert, you're, you're too good for the church, right? You know, you could be doing so much more holding you back because you know, they're, you know, you're not living your life, you know, to its fullest.
[00:29:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. That just hit me like a ton of bricks. I have actually heard that before. Yeah. I've heard it before too. Wow. That is a flattering word. We can make you high up. We can. In fact, that kind of goes into the idea of the Kingman that you read about in Alma chapter 51 verses one through eight because they wanted, they didn't want to have Freeman anymore.
They just wanted to have a king and have leaders and even says because of their Royal line, there were a group of people who believed we should be in charge because of who we are. Oh, that's fine.
[00:29:57] Doug Farley: Right, right. I was just thinking about that too, is that, uh, the Kingman and how when they finally Came and leveled them.
I mean, they killed like 2000 of them. Uh, and it's like, where did all, you know, that many people had been flattered into this, this concept. Of, you know, we're not going to lift up our arm, we're not going to help out because we didn't get our way because we don't, we don't like that the voice of the people chose to be free.
And, and so they, they were all disgruntled about it. Yeah. There was a lot of people that came along with that, with those flatterings.
[00:30:34] Robert Howarth: You're right. I mean, Doug, I was shocked. It was in chapter 51, verse 13, where the King men were happy when they heard the Lamanites were coming up and they refused to help defend their country I just don't get it. I don't get it. But, you know, I, that's the thing about the, you know, the Book of Mormon is that there's a lot of different perspectives that you really do get. Um, and you're able to really see, you know, things in our day, how they correlate to, um, you know, what people were doing back then.
I mean, really, you know, people haven't changed all that much.
[00:31:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, and so here's one, I'll add this one because this is what the Holy Ghost taught me, which again, like I've said, I've read this so many times. How did I not see this word, but there was one word word that stood out to me over and over again.
That is one of the enemy's greatest tactics. And so we're going to turn to, I want to go to Alma chapter 45 and in the little summary. Where Mormon wrote, okay, here's what you're about to read. The word that stood out to me is right here. And it says the account of the people of Nephi and their wars and dissensions.
in the days of Helaman, according to the record of Helaman, which he kept in his days, grab something to mark your scriptures with. And I'm going to give you all the verses that have the word dissension. I want you to circle it. I'm going to tell you what that word means because it just struck me. So you're going to find it in chapter 45, verse 21, right in the middle talks about the many little dissensions and disturbances.
You're going to find it in verse 23, the word dissensions. It talks about that the churches, there arose a dissension among them. You're going to find it in chapter 46 verse six, thus they were led away by Amalickiah to dissensions. Then you're going to find it in verse 11 talks about the armies of the Nephites had heard of these dissensions.
He was angry with Amalickiah verse 28. And there's the word dissensions and then the people who had dissented. So I circled both of those dissensions and dissented. Okay. And then you're going to find it in chapter 47 verse 36. Now these dissenters having the same instruction and the same information of the Nephites, you having been instructed in the same knowledge of the Lord, nevertheless, it is strange to relate.
Not long after their dissensions, they became more hardened and more impenitent and more wild, wicked, and ferocious than the Lamanites, drinking in with the traditions of the Lamanites, giving way to indolence and all manner of lasciviousness, entirely forgetting the Lord their God, their meaning the dissenters.
Now the word dissension. And if you go clear back now to Alma chapter 45, the little. Blurb about what we're going to read. It says he's going to give us an account of the people of Nephi, their wars and dissensions. They're two separate things. We have wars. The wars are against the Lamanites. So I put Lamanites with a line to wars, but dissensions, I put Nephites because then here's what dissensions means.
It means a disagreement in opinion. I think we know this like, Oh yeah, I knew that I knew what dissension meant. But of course, when I looked it up in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary, this Floored me. I was like, okay, I get it. Disagreement, opinion, usually a disagreement, which is violent. We've seen this in the scriptures producing warm debates or angry words, contention words.
But then it said this, a breach of friendship and union. That is what's going on here because The Dissensions are among the believers, and that almost becomes even the worst part of the war chapters, is that, like you said, Robert and Doug, we have people who were once believing people and then all of a sudden they're like, yeah, I don't think I believe this anymore.
That's the dissensions. And then they aren't friends anymore because of their different belief system. And going back to that verse 36, they don't any longer believe in the Lord their God. And that I never noticed that. I mean. How many of us have experienced this with friends and loved ones? I wish I could see hands going up cause mine would for sure.
And we can just see how clearly the tactics of the enemy work. And these war chapters are the equivalent of watching the opposing teams film. And these war chapters are also the equivalent of seeing how the winning teams defeated the opponent. So we will look into what works against the enemy in the next segment.
Segment 4
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[00:35:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, you guys, tell me then what worked for the Nephites? What made them successful? And we could talk about this for hours. So here we go. Hit it.
[00:35:24] Robert Howarth: Well, I think, you know, just on the, on the battlefront, you know, the, the very first battle in chapter 43, they came with armor and breastplates and shields and, and, uh, headplates, which, you know, scared the Lamanites very much.
They'd never seen that before. They'd never seen that kind of preparation before. And I love that. It's great. Beyond that, you know, Moroni, he would, uh, defend the fortify the cities and he'd make, uh, places of security, uh, for his armies. And, and, you know, he was very strategic in the way that he built his strategic, the defensive line between the Lamanites and the Nephites.
And he drove the, the, the Lamanites out of the east wilderness and, you know, made it so they had a defensible territory. And, you know, they dug ditches around all these cities. They built works of timber and they had towers and, you know, And, you know, I'm just thinking about how much effort and time and energy that all these people put into to build these fortifications, but they were absolutely necessary.
Uh, and they were effective. And I think that's, that's a huge part of it is that, you know, Hey, we talked about putting on the armor of God, um, and, you know, reading from the scriptures, attending the temple, uh, you know, partaking of the sacrament, having family, uh, scripture study, you know, personal prayer, all these different things give you this armor.
That, uh, not only, you know, helps you to withstand temptation, but to also have, um, you know, the hope that, you know, better days are ahead. Um, I think that that's a huge part of it. So those are the things that I kind of took from, um, you know, the Nephites and the things that they did on the physical side of things.
But then on the spiritual side of things, you know, they talked about, you know, Helaman was no less serviceable, you know, they were preaching the word of God and cleansing their inner vessel like I was talking about. You know, that's where your Moroni came in as they acted on it through the preparations they made to ensure that they were prepared when the enemy would come.
And for us, it's, you know, that preparation that, you know, when, when difficult decisions or things come up where you don't know what to do. Yeah, there is always an answer. There's always, you know, a way to go forward and you might not know. It's like Nephi when he had to go get the plates of brass, you know, he jumps over the wall.
He has no idea what's going to happen next. And a lot of times that's us as well, because I know, you know, with some of the situations I've had, you know, particularly if you want to talk about Ellery, you know, when she came out as gay, I mean, you know, It rocked my world and that was like, okay, what now?
Yeah, and I can tell you what it did for me is two things and that is number one I love people in a different way than I ever did before. I love more deeply and and and and You know, I care about people in a way that I didn't before I just didn't know I didn't know And then beyond that, I, I can accept that I don't know everything and I might not know everything in this life, but I know enough and I know that the Book of Mormon is true.
I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God of the restoration. I know that the temples that we have today are doing the most important work on this earth. And I know that my family is eternal. Um, and that's what brings me joy and happiness. And, um, I'm okay now, you know, I'm okay because, you know, I don't know what the future holds.
I don't. But I do know that I have a loving heavenly father who has given me a family that I love and that we have gone to the temple and we have, uh, kept our covenants. And you know, if we can continue on the straight and narrow path, we can return to live with our heavenly father all together. I know that to be true.
[00:38:58] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Um, I think Robert just captain Moroni-ed all of us and wave that title of liberty right there. He definitely did. That testimony was so powerful. In fact, let's go there. Turn to Alma chapter 46 and let's just mark the title of liberty. You know, I didn't even realize this, but the title of liberty was waived.
First of all, it was written and waived among the dissenters. I don't know why my whole life I always thought it was for the Lamanites, but I did. I was like, what? No, he did the title of liberty for all the people who'd left the church. And I was like, wait a minute. Everybody stop. Let's just remember what we're doing and why we're here.
And he just pulled a Robert and he waved his testimony for everybody there to see and be reminded of what we're doing and what this cause is. And I love it in Alma chapter 46 and Robert, I'm going to let you read it.
[00:39:55] Robert Howarth: And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry with Amalickiah.
And it came to pass that he rent his coat and he took a piece thereof and wrote upon it in memory of our God, our religion and freedom and our peace, our wives and our children. And he fastened it upon the end of a pole and he fastened it on his head plate and his breastplate and his shields. And he girded on his armor about his loins and he took the pole.
Which, um, which had on the end thereof his rent coat and he called it the title of liberty and he bowed himself to the earth and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren so long as there should be a band of Christians remain to possess the land. And thus were all the true believers of Christ who belong to the church of God called by those who did not belong to the church.
I just find it really fascinating that, you know, he, he goes and, you know, is, is just a very passionate man and he'll rent his coat and he makes his title of liberty and, you know, stands his ground. But what he did first before anything else was what he prayed, he knelt down and he prayed. And I think that shows humility because so many times I think I know exactly what I'm going to do and I just, boom, let's go.
And it turns into just hot garbage. And, um, You know, really what it boils down to is a lot of times I don't have that humility to kneel down and pray And to you know, ask my heavenly father. Hey, you know, this is what i'm going to do Help me to do this. Give me the strength and let's go Now, I just am really impressed by Captain Roneye that, you know, he had all these, you know, mighty and strong things, but also he had great humility and he had humility towards the Lord and prayed, uh, before he went out and, and proclaimed, you know, the, the title of liberty to, uh, to all the dissenters.
[00:41:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. And to, yeah. And I'm just, I keep going back to this idea to their friends and family members, to people that they loved, who all believe in Christ, who all believe in the Lord, their God. And he's just like, no, remember, please, I mean, I felt it when you bore your testimony just then, Robert, that was awesome.
Thank you for doing that. Doug, what else did you find? What was successful?
[00:42:18] Doug Farley: Oh yeah. As Robert touched on with the battles and the armor and how it ties to putting on the armor of God. And if you look at what each of those pieces mean and what they protect, it's, it's so cool because by focusing on those, putting that energy into those, then there is nothing that can come and tear you down.
There's nothing. And one of the things that I thought was interesting is. That came to me was, as you look at the Nephites and the Labanites, there's a two, there's two things, you know, that kind of had in common is they had strength, physical strength, and then they had a mental, their mental capacities.
And what is the difference between the two of them? Well, to me, I see that the gospel enlightens. And when you're living not to the covenants that you have of God, it does the opposite. You don't have that enlightenment. And I think that's another thing that ties into this, uh, title of liberty is that it gave the why.
We just, Becky and I listened to a podcast. Uh, from a couple, um, from England and it's understanding the youth of today and the difference between them and us and our parents. And the kids want to know why, and we're not used to saying the why in the church. We just like to say, Oh, keep reading, just keep standing.
You'll figure it out. You'll know, just go to the temple. It's weird, but yeah, you'll get your answers. We can't do that nowadays. We have to know the why and we have to teach the why. And one of the things that I loved about the battles with. Moroni. And when he fought Zarahemla is that here he used a strategy surrounds them at the shores of the river and he's just totally beating the snot out of them.
And then he stops and he has control. And. Right before that, when they saw that they were completely surrounded, the Lamanites fought like dragons, and they were splitting the headplates, they were piercing the shields and the breastplates, and the, you know, so they had it in them. They had the strength factor, but this idea of not only the enlightenment that comes with the gospel, but But it also, if you're in tune with that, you have control.
And he stopped multiple times. As a kid, I always thought, why didn't he just finish him off? That would have saved so much heartache later on. If they just wiped out the Lamanites, then, hey, it'd be all, it'd be all, you know, happy, you know.
[00:45:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: There'd be no more war chapters. We can just end it right here.
[00:45:09] Doug Farley: Yeah. There would be no more of this, you know, scourge that's constantly bugging the Nephites and making them repent, you know.
[00:45:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: But isn't it neat that Moroni, he keeps offering him a chance to enter an oath. To enter into a covenant and he does that, that's happens multiple times twice actually in these wars, like just stop, like you said, stop fighting, give us your, give us all your swords and everything and just enter into a covenant of peace.
And it's interesting that they just wouldn't even do that.
[00:45:41] Robert Howarth: You know, the thing that struck me as I was reading as I'm the guy, I'm the Lamanite fighting against Christ, you know, God, because I sin like crazy and he gives me that option every single time. You know what? If you will just covenant to keep my commandments, give me your sword, go back and he knows I'm going to break the covenant.
He knows it. And, and Maroni knew it too. You know, he knew that they were gonna probably break the covenant, but, you know, he loved the, the people enough to, to give him a chance. And I think that, you know, I, I just take that into my own life and think, man, I'm fighting so hard against the Lord some days.
And, and he's saying, you know what, just make a covenant. Just give me your sword and go in peace. And then he knows I'm probably going to mess up again. I'll be back there next year fighting him again. Yeah.
[00:46:22] Doug Farley: I love that, Robert. That is so true to life.
[00:46:25] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. That's great application.
[00:46:27] Doug Farley: Right. And then, and then he further keeps control. Because after years of all of this and the dissenters and all the problems that that caused and then, uh, Malachi goes and takes the eastern front and goes all the way up and he's almost ready to get bountiful. Well, then they, you know, Teancum kills Malachi and then they get all scared and they hide and hunker down in this very fortified city and Moroni, they figure out how to get him out.
And, and they do, they, they get them out. And once again, he stops, he doesn't slaughter him. He gives them that choice. And those that do enter into a covenant, he does, he lets them go. And those that don't, he doesn't just jump in and kill them or he just imprisons them. So he still, again, he understands and respects life.
And liberty and choice. So he has a, he has that perfect understanding of the gospel that they talk about when they praise Moroni and say, he's just like, Amen. And these prophets and you see it in his actions and you see it in how he responds when the heat is on.
[00:47:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: You know, I really like how you brought that up.
In fact, everything that both of you shared, I'm looking back at our list of the enemy's tactics. And the Nephites are the exact opposite. They did not want to enslave, they did not dehumanize people, they did not want to stir up anger. There was no flattering words and no dissensions on their part. They just, Moroni kept wanting to just point the people to Christ.
That was his sole goal in all of this was just to give people a chance to live. And so your answers were so great. And this discussion has been powerful as we talk about what works and what will help us win our wars. And so we're going to do this in the next segment. There's one specific word that was repeated throughout all of these chapters.
That is the winning tactic when we're in war and we're gonna talk about that next.
Segment 5
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[00:48:48] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. you two. There was one word that was repeated over and over and over again. In fact, I got one color and decided to color that word and I kind of got tired of that color. That's how many times I marked this word. There is one word that describes how Moroni. Got ready for all of these wars. And what was the word?
[00:49:06] Robert Howarth: Preparation. Preparation.
[00:49:08] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. He prepared preparation prepared. Oh, so many times, so many times. And his people were always prepared. Now in the October, 2020 general conference, our prophet gave an incredible talk in the women's session. And this talk is called embrace the future with faith. And I asked my two guests to read this over because our prophet has prepared us.
For the war that we are in today. And he gave us three ways that we can be prepared. In fact, he said this in his talk, he said, how can we best prepare for this war? And he says, I'm so concerned about your spiritual and emotional preparation. And then this. In that regard, we can learn a lot from Captain Moroni.
As commander of the Nephite armies, he faced opposing forces that were stronger, greater in number and meaner. So Moroni prepared his people in three essential ways, and we're going to discuss what those ways are and how the prophet thinks His advice to us in being prepared. So here's the first principle.
Number one, he says we need to create places of security. And I, Robert, you brought that up several times, this idea of creating places of security and that our home should be a place of security. I want to know how have you made your house a place of security?
[00:50:26] Robert Howarth: Well, I, I think, you know, the, the main thing is, you know, the spirit that's in your home, um, you know, and the way that that's done is, you know, hey, you know, my kids know that, uh, you know, they are loved and that they come here that they, you know, feel complete, um, security that, hey, you know, I'm not judging them.
I, I want them to know that I love them unconditionally, you know, here in the home. Uh, you know, we, we do all that we can, we read the scriptures, we pray, um, but more than anything else, you know, the, uh, We really try to, you know, love one another in our home. And so I, I think they talk about the, uh, places of security that marona, you know, they, they dig up ditches of dirt and dirt and put up, uh, you know, timbers across it.
And I, I'd like to think that I've done that a lot in my house. But then beyond that, you know, you've got the, you know, the TV and, and other things that, you know, that it's like the laminates digging, you know, underneath there to get in another way. Mm-Hmm. . There's other ways that that can happen, but I can just tell you in my home, you know, that, uh, the, it's just that feeling of love is just constant and always there.
It's not me. I'm, I get angry and mad, but, you know, Holly, you know, makes the home, you know, beautiful place. And so, um, I just know that when we come here, I feel, I feel like the tribulations of the world, they stop at the front door.
[00:51:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I have a follow up question for you, Robert, because it's what the prophet just, it was awesome when you said it, here's what the prophet said, when your home becomes a personal sanctuary of faith, where the spirit resides.
Your home becomes the first line of defense. But then our prophet went on to say that the temple, the house of the Lord is a place of security like any other. And I want to know for you, Robert, how has the temple become a place of security? Cause you've been logging in a lot of time. You're working in the temple now.
[00:52:12] Robert Howarth: I am an ordinance worker now. I, I couldn't resist, you know, I look incredible in an all white suit. Yeah. Very light loafers. Uh, yes, I'll just tell you, I mean, The temple has changed for me in the last, you know, 10, you know, five to 10 years As to what it really is, you know, I always used to go to the temple when things are hard and try to get answers And you know, that's really not what I do anymore.
I go to the temple to uh, have a sanctuary and and to feel Strength i'm not so much asking. Hey lord. I need this blessing. Will you give it to me? It's more i'm going to the temple because uh, i'm looking to become one with god I want to more like him. I want to accept his will because I've been fighting against him for years and years and years to do what I wanted to do, and I finally have accepted, you know, through my work in the temple and being there as often as I am now that I am totally fine now.
Becoming so much greater than what I thought I was going to be, because I want to do what the Lord wants me to do. I want to be who he wants me to be because it far exceeds, you know, my grandiose ideas of, you know, who Robert Howarth was going to be at this point in his life. Um, and, and so I, I've got a, a totally different perspective.
I'm much happier And you'll feel contentment, um, because, you know, the preparation that I'm making each and every time that I go to the temple or, you know, make my home a sacred place, um, I, I feel that the effects of it now, I see things, you know, more celestial, I guess, you know, that I see that this life, the purpose of it, um, It's not to become, you know, wealthy and the smartest person and, you know, everyone thinks you're the greatest thing of all time.
It's to really become that person that, that your Heavenly Father believes in you to become.
[00:54:10] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. I like how you said the word happier, like that verse happier. Okay, Doug, this one's for you. Here's what the prophet said. The second thing he wants us to do, principle number two, prepare your mind to be faithful to God.
And I love how in it he says, life without God is a life filled with fear. Life with God is a life filled with peace. So I'd like to know, Doug, how have you prepared your mind to be faithful to God? What does that look like for Doug Farley?
[00:54:38] Doug Farley: Oh, that's interesting because, um, I was just thinking as Robert was talking, you know, like what have I done?
Like, you know, I'm, I'm just a, I'm just a dumb engineer that doesn't know how to spell. And, um, and every time I look back at my life and I look back at my work and I, I, I'm, I'm kind of one of those guys that, that I don't see as broadly as most people. I, I'm the focused, I'm like, I, I can't multitask really well, depends on what I'm You know, there's parameters around that.
And so what, what does the gospel done? Like, how does that work with me? How does preparation work for me? And that is, I naturally have this tendency of putting this structure in place. And then if I stay within that structure, it answers all those questions, it solves those problems, it makes it harder for other people to say, well, do you ever think outside of the box?
And sometimes I have to say no, unfortunately, because I create this. Uh, world that is, has some natural safeguards built into it. And when I look at it through the gospel, as, as Becky and I were raising our kids, you know, one thing that's very important is that we do what we teach our kids. And there was one time, and I can't remember where this, I read this scripture because I was thinking about this and, and thinking about how all the influences out in the world and how your home becomes a place of security and safety and the gospel.
But it was a thing where if you keep this, the destroying age will pass over you. It was that kind of a concept. And, and it was. The bad guys or the bad influences and stuff would go down our street and not even see our house. And, and so, um, my why is because I get that confirmation from God. I feel it when I live it.
And when I have to make a choice and it's a hard choice and I do the right thing, I feel it. I know my heart. The feelings I get, it's like, God is right. They're saying, good job. You did it. And he, and he loves me and I feel that love and that propels me to want to do it more.
[00:57:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I Doug, I think that's a great why, especially going back to the second thing.
I think it's a great why to prepare your mind to be faithful to God for covenants and blessings. So thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. Here's the last thing he said, principle number three, never stop preparing. And we're just going to read some of these things that he said. All right, Doug, will you please read that very first line where it says, even when things went well,
[00:57:40] Doug Farley: Even when things went well, Captain Moroni continued to prepare his people.
He never stopped. He never became complacent. The adversary never stops attacking, so we can never stop preparing. The more self reliant we are temporally, emotionally, and spiritually, the more prepared we are to thwart Satan's relentless assaults.
[00:58:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: But one of the things that struck, that really hit me hard when I read this talk was he was talking and he says, my dear sisters, we have so much to look forward to.
Then he said, and I think he's speaking to men and women alike, the Lord placed you here now. And because he knew you had the capacity to negotiate the complexities of the latter part of these latter days. And I really believe that about all of us. We are all here because we do have the capacity to negotiate the complexities.
I mean, that's war language right there to negotiate the complexities. of the latter part of these latter days. And then he blessed all of us with this promise. And Robert, you read this promise.
[00:58:46] Robert Howarth: You bet. I promise as we create places of security, prepare our minds to be faithful to God and never stop preparing, God will bless us.
He will deliver us. Yea, in so much that he will speak peace to our souls. He will grant unto us great faith and cause us that we can hope for our deliverance in him. As you prepare to embrace the future with faith, those promises will be yours. I so testify with my expression of love for you and my confidence in you in the sacred name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
[00:59:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Amen. I will amen that. Thank you. So he gave this talk and I, I encourage everyone to go and read it and just really thoughtfully consider how are you preparing for the war that we're in today and what are these tactics as we have this council of war today and we've talked about all of the things that we've learned from these incredible chapters, the war chapters, we're going to finish with one of the last promises and probably one of the Last pieces of advice that Moroni is going to give us.
And we'll do that next.
Segment 6
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[01:00:03] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Here is our absolute guarantee to win. So we've talked about tons of tactics. Here we are in our council of war, and this is the one thing that we're going to is going to say, okay, let's remember this turned to Alma chapter 46 verse 27. And Doug, will you please read Alma chapter 46 verse 27 for us?
[01:00:22] Doug Farley: Sure. And now who knoweth. Thanks. But, what the remnant of the seed of Joseph, which shall perish as a garment, are those who have dissented from us, yea, and even it shall be ourselves if we do not stand fast in the faith of Christ.
[01:00:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Highlight that. He's saying right there, we've got dissenters. And it might be you.
So check yourself. I love that. And then it says, if we, and it, but it won't be you if you just will remember to stand fast in the faith of Christ. So I asked you guys a question in preparation for this episode, and this is what my question was. When have you had to stand fast in the faith of the Lord and how did you do it?
[01:01:08] Robert Howarth: Oh, Tammy, it's every day, but I can tell you, you know, I already talked a little bit about this earlier. Um, you know, my sweet Ellery is, you know, uh, my only daughter, I've got five kids and she's the only girl. And, um, you know, I, I've always, you know, had a special relationship there because of that. And, you know, she, uh, uh, You know, when she came out as gay, it was hard because, you know, I, I look back at the last, you know, 10 years of her life and, and, and what she'd been through and, you know, kind of looked at it through a different lens and, and so, okay, now I understand, you know, what, what she was, why she was acting like that or whatever, you know, she, so she, you know, went to BYU and, you know, she went and served a mission and, you know, she did all these different things, trying, making, uh, deals with God.
And as a father, my heart is just destroyed. Um, so as we're going through this, you know, a lot of different people have a lot of different opinions about, you know, what, what I should be doing. And, you know, they're asking you, do you still go to church? Are you still active? What's, what's the deal there? And I had a good friend that said, you, you can't be there.
They, this is a institution that does not support your daughter. Um, and it's hard to argue with that. Because, you know, Ellery comes to me and says, you know, why does God hate me? Yeah. Why does he not want me to be with him? And I don't have an answer for that. I don't, I mean, you know, I've sit there and I've prepared for, you know, 45 plus years or whatever in my life.
And I have no defense or no way to, um, help or, or to make things, but I can't make it better. I can't. Um, and so, you know, standing strong for me was, you know, Holly and I, uh, one night, you know, it was just hard because you're like, What do we do? What am I, how do I support her? What is it that we need to be doing?
And, and ultimately I'm on my knees praying and, um, they talk about the get the faith and, you know, that to talk about in that talk from, you know, President Nelson, that, that faith is, is a gift that can be given to you. And I'm praying and I'm saying, am I supposed to do now? You know, how do I help her?
What do I do? And thought that came to me. Sorry. It came to me that there is a battalion of angels that are around you and your family.
And I know they were there and I know that, you know, they gave us strength, but I can tell you this, that through it all that, you know, it just came down to what, what do I really want? What do I care about? What matters and, you know, families, everything, and, you know, these people that are telling me to leave the church are saying, well, you got to do it for your family. They go, no, I can't because if this isn't it, then what is it?
[01:04:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, what is it?
[01:04:26] Robert Howarth: Where is it? Then where do I find happen? If it's not here, I mean, this is the only way. And so I remember talking to Ellery and saying, listen, I don't know what's going to happen, but I can promise you one thing. That when we're together again, I will find you wherever you are and you will be with us.
And you know, I don't have any doctrine that says that's going to happen, but I know it in my heart because you know, I have faith that families are forever. I have faith that, you know, the Atoma is infinite. I have faith that, um, you know, there's a purpose for us on this life and it is complex. These latter days are complex and we are negotiating this the best we can.
And you know, when it all gets said and done, um, you know, I had to, to doubt my doubts and I had to go to with what I knew to be true. And, and I've had unbelievable experiences through the priesthood. Um, where I know just as Joseph Smith said, I can't deny what happened. I saw what I saw. I know it's true, and I can tell you that I know it's true.
I guarantee that it's true because I've had experiences that testify of it. I've read from the Book of Mormon. I feel the spirit. I go to the temple, and I know that incredible things are happening. The other day I was at the veil, and you know, you do this hundreds of times, but this lady was coming through, and she and I, you know, I don't know her.
She doesn't know me. And the spiritual experience I had at that moment was something that was tangible. And so these things happen every day for me that this is the true gospel. And yet my daughter is still gay and my daughter still struggles. And my daughter, you know, isn't going to church or anything like that, but she knows that we love her unconditionally.
She knows that we are a family and she knows she can count on us. And I know I can count on God. I know I can count on my savior. Um, and I just bear solemn testimony that this is his church and the gospel is true and that the gospel is a gospel of happiness and no matter what you're going through and no matter what is happening that we can be happy, we can have joy and that's, you know, I just, I cannot say this with more, um, intensity than that.
That it's true and it's, and it's the most wonderful thing that that could, could be that it is true. And I leave that with you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
[01:07:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Amen. Amen. I hope I never forget this moment. Oh, , Robert, thank you so much. Wow, thank you.
[01:07:33] Doug Farley: Yeah, thank you, Robert. That's amazing.
[01:07:37] Robert Howarth: Sorry I'm a boob.
[01:07:39] Tammy Uzelac Hall: No, you're not. Oh, that was awesome. Oh, I wrote, I couldn't write fast enough. I just love it. Like if this isn't it, then where is it? Cause I agree. Oh, and I love sweet Ellery. Oh, that was, thank you so much. It's kind of funny. Cause at the end of every summer episode, I'm asking people, how do you count it?
Joy? I'm not even going to ask that because you already answered it. You beautifully testified of that. So thank you. And by the way, if you want to hear from Sweet Ellery and her mom, Holly, I'm going to recommend you check out the most recent episode of Unnamed Women of the Book of Mormon, because they're my guests.
It's on Apple Podcasts under the new LDS Living Podcast channel, so it's so good. Go check it out. Okay, Doug. How, when have you had to stand fast in the faith of the Lord? How did you do it?
[01:08:38] Doug Farley: Wow. Boy.
Wow. Thank you, Robert. That, I mean, being right close to the Howarts, um, we felt some of those feelings and they've been an inspiration to me. Um, you know, I was like, as I look back and. Um, and my wife and, uh, the challenges that I've had and the struggles of, you know, we all come into this world with baggage with, you know, what comes from our family and you're married to another family and that all comes together and, and you realize that what you thought was so cool was kind of dumb.
And, and, All of your background and the things that were so correct aren't always correct and and you have to learn how to
how to broaden your thinking and how to see people differently and see situations differently and um
and Becky and I we got married we're just you know very tight very close and we've raised three kids and um we had a very unexpected fourth child not make it and that was really hard at the time. Um, dad was still born and um, and it's really hard with Becky. It's harder on women because they actually experience it firsthand and we kind of do our best to support.
And not too long ago someone actually, we had talked to someone about it and they actually asked me and I said, well what about you Doug? What did you think? What was your experience? And it was the first time you know anyone had really actually point, you know, pointed me on it. And um, and it's hard when things happen that are outside of your control and you can't do anything about it.
It's hard when things happen that are outside of your control and you can't do anything about it. It's hard to lose parents. It's hard to, um, lose siblings. Um, and it's hard to lose a child even if you haven't ever met 'em. And one of the things that I go back to that all the time is I've, I, I know I've shared this before with people, but I had an opportunity to serve as a study school teacher at the jail and.
You know, you just kind of doing your thing and you go about your, you go from place to place in there and you teach a lesson and you teach a lesson. And there was a principle that I taught that was basically to challenge the prisoners at the time to, to tell them that God knows them, knows who they are and loves them.
To challenge them to go ask God what he thinks of them.
And as you think about that principle being taught to someone who's incarcerated, that can be very hard because it's like they are in a bad spot and everybody thinks they're in a bad spot, knows they're in a bad spot, labels them and everything else, and they do it to themselves. You had to go and say, go and ask God what he thinks.
And I had taught this lesson multiple times and then I thought, you know what, I had never actually done that myself. And so I just, you know, in one of my prayers, I knelt down and I said, Heavenly Father, I know that you're there, you've blessed me, you've answered my prayers, but I've never asked this and I've been teaching it.
And so I'm going to ask you, and I asked him, what, what do you think? And, and then along with like 90 percent of all my other prayers, I then. Pushed through and I don't listen and don't wait and finish my prayer and go on my day and forget I ever even asked it And and that's what happened and this was time passed And I was walking in the halls and I hit one spot and I had this overwhelming feeling that God knew me and loved me and just this totally washed over me and overcame me and it was the most incredible experience and I was like, wow, it was really cool.
And that just clearest impression ever of that prayer came to my mind that I knew that God loved me. That he knew me, that I was his son, and he cared that deeply, and that pulls all the gospel principles together.
[01:14:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, Doug, Doug, Doug, Doug, thank you. You know, here's what I love about what you said, because if anyone out there is wondering how God feels about you right now, I'm going to issue the Doug Farley challenge because it totally works.
You will. Get an answer. God loves you. It's the one prayer he's the most anxious to answer. And it's also the prayer that he will not be silent on. I have a testimony of that. So thank you, Doug. And thank you to both of you. Thank you for spending this time to talk to us about these war chapters. I think we can see just from this whole experience why they're in the book of Mormon.
That was awesome. Thanks guys. I love you both. Thank you. Boy, I sure would love to know how everybody counted at joy through the war chapters. In fact, go and join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram and share what you have learned from this week's episode. And then at the end of the week, we usually ask a question.
So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway. Bye. Because it's where we're going to have the links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.
So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Doug Farley and Robert Howarth. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.
com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember, as Doug reminded us, that God loves you and that you are his favorite.
